how long does surgery take to remove a bullethow long does surgery take to remove a bullet
The frame and pulley put gentle pressure on your femur. Your abdomen is larger than normal, firm, and very painful. You may cover the wound with a thin layer of petroleum jelly, such as Vaseline, and a nonstick bandage. Whatever the extent of your wounds, there are things you can do to care for yourself at home. 3, pp. The bone flap removed is preserved in a fridge until it can replaced once doctors have the swelling under control. In: Walls RM, ed. If swelling is noted, there may be internal bleeding and possible bone and joint injury. Please turn on JavaScript and try again. Frequent urination or burning when you urinate. The surgery involved a fluoroscopy-guided anterior extraperiosteal lateral window approach. The decision for managing gunshot patient should be based on serial reliable clinical examinations, vital signs, and imaging studies. We removed the bullet and after 24 hours of observation, the patient was discharged from the hospital in good conditions. Youll probably have surgery 24 to 48 hours after you seek treatment for your injury. For additional information visit Linking to and Using Content from MedlinePlus. Surgery may be needed to repair damage to organs or blood vessels. Gunshot wounds can get infected because material and debris can get pulled into the wound with the bullet. This article does not provide medical advice. They can try drugs to take down the swelling or drain off some of the fluid that bathes the brain, but in extreme cases, surgery may be the only answer. This article may contains scientific references. Your provider may do this surgery if you need ORIF but cant have that surgery right away. You should sleep lying flat on your back with your broken femur elevated above the level of your heart. Surgery cuts normally take 6 to 8 weeks to heal, according to St. Josephs Healthcare Hamilton. Facts About Falls. WebThese include bullets found in joints, CSF, or the globe of the eye. WebHow long does surgery take to remove a bullet? Nowadays, serial physical examination, focus assessment with sonography in trauma (FAST), CT scan, and laparoscopy have increased NOM. 8, no. With the bullet removed, I cleaned the bore and checked for damage where the bullet had been stuck. We comply with the HONcode standard for trustworthy health information. The patient was free of symptoms within 1 month. Thoracoscopy, which is a video-assisted surgery, may be performed for the management of chest gunshot wounds. This is a common injury in gunshot wound to the chest, when a bullet gets lodged into the pleural cavity or even the lung tissue. You are vomiting blood or what looks like coffee grounds. You cant put weight on your injured leg. Do not stop taking them just because you feel better. Your broken femur can take months to heal. Oozing small amounts of blood is normal. The patient may present with rapid breathing, use of accessory breathing muscles, stridor and anxiety in case of airway obstruction. The shooting could result from suicidal intention, purposeful or accidental firing. Copyright 1997-2023, A.D.A.M., Inc. Any duplication or distribution of the information contained herein is strictly prohibited without authorization. Injury to the Shoulder Joint or Fracture If gunshot wounds occur to the articulation of the shoulder joint, meticulous evaluation is necessary to rule out the presence of bullet fragments in the area. Sign In After conservative treatment and vital signs follow-up for the first 24 hours and series of clinical examinations, an EL was scheduled. A licensed physician should be consulted for diagnosis and treatment of any and all medical conditions. Can a BB stay in your body? Gunshot wound to the chest is challenging owing to the presence of vital organs like lungs, heart and their surrounding structures including major blood vessels. Read about our approach to external linking. It enters the body by crushing the tissue and causes damage to the internal structures. Always consult your healthcare provider to ensure the information displayed on this page applies to your personal circumstances. Treatment in case of fracture to the shoulder joint generally involves bracing and appropriate rehabilitation. The procedure involves the surgical removal of one or both of the testicles and generally takes a few hours under general anesthesia. This will help reduce swelling and pain. Additionally, in the middle there is trachea, bronchi and esophagus, while the lower ends cover the upper parts of the abdominal structures like stomach, liver, spleen, and kidneys. The ET tube or tracheostomy tube is attached to a machine called a respirator. A.D.A.M. Be sure to make and go to all appointments, and call your doctor or nurse advice line (811 in most provinces and territories) if you are having problems. Underlying medical conditions and associated injuries are appropriately treated. Gunshot wound is caused by penetration of the bullet, which travels through a projectile path after being shot from a firearm. When you shower, keep your dressing and incisions dry. You have sudden chest pain and shortness of breath, or you cough up blood. Ideally, you want the injured person in an ambulance within 10 minutes of being shot. You have symptoms of a blood clot, such as: Pain in your calf, back of the knee, thigh, or groin. Updated by: Jesse Borke, MD, CPE, FAAEM, FACEP, Attending Physician at Kaiser Permanente, Orange County, CA. Surgery may be needed to repair damage to organs or blood vessels. The patients vital signs were BP 120/80mm, Hg HR 80/min, and Glasgow Coma Scale (GCS) 15/15. Last reviewed by a Cleveland Clinic medical professional on 01/18/2022. If you break your femur, you will need immediate medical help. It may also be needed to clean your GSW or remove the bullet. The skin under your cast or splint is burning or stinging. Your surgeon inserts the nail into your leg through your medullary cavity. Additionally elevation of the arm and applying a pressure bandage may be required. Any additional injuries in the area are also identified and need to be repaired. You may have tubes coming out of your chest and/or abdomen. You have drainage or a bad smell coming from the cast or splint. In such cases, the chances of hemorrhage as well as infection are high. If you had stitches, your doctor will tell you when to come back to have them removed. Medically reviewed by Drugs.com. WebA complete recovery may take several weeks to months. Healthwise, Healthwise for every health decision, and the Healthwise logo are trademarks of Healthwise, Incorporated. Accessed 1/21/2022. They can slow healing. Keep these tips in mind: Your provider may change your dressing for you at first. Ask your doctor if it's okay to take off a removable splint to bathe. While gunshot wounds to the head are considered most lethal, gunshot wounds to the chest too may be dangerous. You may lose more blood if your fracture pierces your skin than if it doesnt pierce your skin. These feelings are not signs of weakness. You may need to take sponge baths for several days until your wound has healed enough to shower. Injury to the Soft Tissue Soft tissues like muscles, ligaments, cartilages, etc surrounding the shoulder joint may get injured and damaged due to gunshot wound to the shoulder. ACS can cause permanent muscle and nerve damage. Cleveland Clinic is a non-profit academic medical center. If there is an entry wound and a corresponding exit wound is not detected, it is considered that the bullet is within the body, which can cause more damage and even enter into circulation; hence demands timely identification and management. The open wounds need to be covered with appropriate sterile dressing to prevent air entry through the opening. Treatment may include nerve exploration, resection of neuroma and repair or grafting as indicated. It all depends on where the bullet is, anything in the abdomen would require surgery with general anesthesia. Hope that helped. You may feel shock, fear for your safety, depression, or anger as a result. To remove the bullet, an in- cision of at least 6 inches would be re- quired. The bullet can hit the vital organs like lungs or pleura. The decision for managing gunshot patients This is a common injury in gunshot wound to the chest, when a bullet gets lodged into the pleural cavity or even Theyll also obtain X-rays and computed tomography scan (CT) scans. Do not put any lotion, cream, or herbal remedies on or around your wound without asking your provider first. The need for fixation is assessed and appropriate If you have underlying health issues, like diabetes or high blood pressure, your abdominal pannus removal procedure may be performed in a hospital operating room. Data is temporarily unavailable. Surgical procedures. OH, are you asking for the procedure? You can only find your answer on the operating table. The stability of the patient is assessed by evaluating airways, breathing, consciousness, pulse and blood pressure. He or sThey will look to see if there is an entrance and exit wound from the bullet. No matter how the shooting happened, it can be traumatic. Follow the dispatcher's instructions. WebGenerally the recovery process for most patients spans about 6 months to see final results, and the healing process breaks down into a few key phases: Immediate post-procedure recovery. People age 65 and older have an increased risk for breaking bones, including their femurs, after falling down while standing. Emergency War Surgery. When can I go back to my office or worksite? Skeletal Trauma: Basic Science, Management, and Reconstruction. Your immune system reacts to the injury, stimulating cells that remove damaged tissue and stimulate healing. During EL we found the bullet and a small amount of blood within the abdomen, but all viscera appeared unharmed. A procedure called chest tube insertion is required and may be followed by chest wall surgery. Providers typically do one of two types of surgery: Your surgeon makes an incision at your hip or knee joint. This requires immediate treatment to prevent hypoxia. Historians believe the procedures were used to treat a range of ailments, possibly including mental illness as well as epilepsy and migraines. Call 911 anytime you think you may need emergency care. In treating soft tissue injuries, surgical debridement is performed. Focused abdominal sonography for trauma (FAST) may help in identifying intraabdominal injuries. In case these fragments are detected by appropriate investigations or suspected, relevant procedures using arthroscopic techniques are used. You may have an open wound or a closed wound, depending on your injury. Coming to a Cleveland Clinic location?Hillcrest Cancer Center check-in changesCole Eye entrance closingVisitation, mask requirements and COVID-19 information, Notice of Intelligent Business Solutions data eventLearn more. Dry the area and put on new, clean bandages as directed. No pushing while moving bowels for 4 weeks. You have tingling or numbness in your fingers or toes. Be sure to talk to your provider if you have concerns about your progress or have specific concerns such as pain management. Heavy lifting may place too much stress on your Some of our partners may process your data as a part of their legitimate business interest without asking for consent. (Your healthcare provider can help you find trained in-home care.). But it's common to have some pain for up to several weeks. Mr. Reagan received five units, or two and a half These are completely normal feelings for someone who has been through a traumatic event. If you would like to change your settings or withdraw consent at any time, the link to do so is in our privacy policy accessible from our home page.. Wash your hands again after cleaning the wound and applying the new dressing. Our articles are resourced from reputable online pages. 3, pp. Rest for the first 24 hours. Velmahos [7] reported the use of CT scan in patients with GSW selected for NOM in 2005. Sucking chest wounds can cause dyspnea, chest pain and reduced breathing. Your healthcare provider will examine your body to check for injury. WebYes, an orchiectomy is a major surgery that requires a hospital stay and a significant recovery period. In such cases, treatment becomes more challenging and the chances of death are high. American Academy of Orthopaedic Surgeons. Skeletal traction: Your provider will do surgery to place a pin in your femur or tibia. Talk to your healthcare provider about resources you can tap to help you stay on track. Install handrails in your bathtub or shower and near your toilet. Register. Last updated on Feb 6, 2023. We believe it represents a safe and feasible method of investigation on a hemodynamic stable patient with anterior abdominal penetrating trauma and no signs of peritonitis. The trauma team must recognize the importance of different mechanisms of injury: stab wounds (SWs), gunshot wounds (GSWs), and the velocity of the agent and the different regions of the abdomen (intraperitoneal, retroperitoneal, and thoracoabdominal). to maintaining your privacy and will not share your personal information without
It's also a good idea to know your test results and keep a list of the medicines you take. This usually takes 1 to 2 weeks. You will also be given instructions about taking any new medicines. intra-articular bullet
, gunshot
, sacroiliac joint
, pelvis
, surgical removal. WebHow long does surgery take to remove a bullet? Navigation Menu - Opens a Simulated Dialog, Kenneth J. Koval MD - Orthopedic Surgery, Orthopedic Trauma. He told reporters that Ms Giffords was fortunate that the bullet had stayed on one side and had not hit areas of the brain that are almost always fatal. Pieces of your femur push up against your skin but dont pierce your skin. Heres more information about traction to treat broken femurs: Yes. The hemodynamic stability of our patient allowed us to proceed to imaging studies (chest and abdominal X-rays, CT scan, and FAST), which recognized the bullet in the peritoneal-pelvic cavity. Removal is easier if wounds are examined within 24 hours because the entry wound is visible and open. Providers diagnose broken femurs by examining your injured leg. Typically, most people who have a partial cystectomy will have a shorter recovery period than people who have a radical cystectomy. 2, pp. WebDo not shower for 1 or 2 days after surgery. B. M. Renz and D. V. Feliciano, The length of hospital stay after an unnecessary laparotomy for trauma: a prospective study, The Journal of Trauma, vol. Once your immediate needs are addressed, here are some questions you should ask your healthcare provider: Unfortunately, your femur can still hurt long after your fracture heals. Check your wound for signs of infection such as redness, swelling, or pus. Remove the dressing before bathing unless told otherwise. WebHow do doctors treat a bullet wound? Heres a breakdown: Days 1 to 5: When you break your femur, you also break the What's he waiting for? You may need any of the following tests to diagnose the damage caused by your GSW: A GSW may be minor if it does not go deep into your skin or damage any of your organs. We report a case with a gunshot entry wound at the left lower anterior abdominal wall, without exit wound. Healthwise, Healthwise for every health decision, and the Healthwise logo are trademarks of Healthwise, Incorporated. Your health care provider will tell you how to change your dressing and care for your wound. Or, your provider may suggest covering the wound with a plastic bag to keep it dry. There are many possible causes for this pain called chronic pain. If you have strips of tape on the incision, leave the tape on for a week or until it falls off. For a list of covered benefits, please refer to your Evidence of Coverage or Summary Plan Description. For example, they may recommend exercises that can strengthen your legs and improve balance. You can use pillows to prop up the area. A splenectomy is surgery to remove the entire spleen, a delicate, fist-sized organ that sits under the left rib cage near the stomach. Walk 2 to 3 times per day. This material is provided for educational purposes only and is not intended for medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. While this continues, your bone beings to remake itself, eventually becoming normal bone. Dysplasia is an early form of cancer, and it is important to remove it before it has a chance to progress to more serious forms of cancer. Ask your doctor for help if you find that you are thinking a lot about what happened, avoiding reminders about the shooting, or thinking negative thoughts about yourself and the world. For high-velocity gunshot wounds, shoulder injuries may usually require operative intervention for debridement. But each person recovers at a different pace. URAC's accreditation program is an independent audit to verify that A.D.A.M. For the procedure, the surgeon removes a section of the skull - a "bone flap" - to give the swelling brain room to expand. If you have non-dissolvable stitches or staples, your Lets start with this: Movies have it wrong. In just about every movie ever, first reaction to getting shot is to pull out the bullet, at any cost. They may repair the injury but often complete resolution is impossible at the time of initial surgery. 4, pp. Pain that is not controlled by your pain medicines. Very few people with gunshot wounds like hers live through the ordeal. Do not use skin cleansers, alcohol, peroxide, iodine, or soaps with antibacterial chemicals on the wound unless your provider tells you to. The injuries depend on the type of firearm used, the size (caliber) of bullet, where on your body you were shot, and how soon you were treated. Gunshot wounds occur due to a projectile shot from a firearm. A glossectomy without reconstructive surgery should take 12 hours, while glossectomies in which surgeons must perform reconstructive surgery can last 810 hours. Being active boosts blood flow and helps prevent pneumonia and constipation. Treatment algorithm. WebHow long does it take for a cut to heal after surgery? A bullet can hit the rib and can cause cracking or fracture of the ribs; multiple rib fractures can occur. Any foreign body left in the joint can interfere with normal joint mechanical movement. After both world wars plenty of people had odd bits of shrapnel wandering about inside them for years, because it would be G. W. Shaftan, Indications for operation in abdominal trauma, The American Journal of Surgery, vol. The bullet can hit the vital organs like lungs or pleura. WebThe purpose of dysplasia surgery is to remove the abnormal tissue before it has a chance to transform into cancer. Providers use a variety of metal pieces in ORIF surgery: External fixation is a surgery that stabilizes your broken femur by placing metal bolts in your femur. The bullet, on hitting the chest, punctures the tissue it first encounters with, the bones or the muscular chest wall. When you've been shot, you can have a wide range of injuries. Symptoms include losing consciousness or being short of breath. Hemodynamically stable patient with unreliable clinical examination (i.e., brain injury, spinal cord injury, and intoxication) should have further diagnostic investigation or undergo exploratory laparotomy [6]. Soaking your wound could cause it to reopen. E. J. Days 11 to 28: The cartilage network hardens while you develop new blood vessels and more new bone. Appropriate investigations need to be done to detect these types of vascular injuries. WebYes, an orchiectomy is a major surgery that requires a hospital stay and a significant recovery period. People break their femurs in car crashes, falls or being shot. Call 911 for all medical emergencies. This report presents a logical and effective technique for removing a bullet from the sacroiliac joint (SIJ). Slowly return to your normal activities as directed. Do not pull at your stitches or try to remove them on your own. 9500 Euclid Avenue, Cleveland, Ohio 44195 |, Important Updates + Notice of Vendor Data Event, Visitation, mask requirements and COVID-19 information. 5, pp. Merck Manuals. You may need to use a cane, crutches or a walker to get around. Emergency surgical procedures, which took about two hours, found no bleeding or damage in the abdominal area. You have tingling, weakness, or numbness near the wound. WebThe use of arthroscopy for removal of the bullet from the shoulder joint of this patient minimized surgical dissection and blood loss and reduced the likelihood of complications. Fat enters your bloodstream. Laparoscopy is contraindicated in hemodynamic instability, severe traumatic brain injury (intracerebral pressure may be increased by high abdominal pressure), and intra-abdominal adhesions lack of inadequate laparoscopic skills. Follow the steps below to get better as quickly as possible. You should also call your doctor if you notice signs of an infection, such as: Simon BC, Hern HG. Clean bandages as directed County, CA Using Content from MedlinePlus would be re- quired of such! Surgeon inserts the nail into your leg through your medullary cavity left in the abdominal.. Of chest gunshot wounds like hers live through the ordeal scan in patients with GSW selected for NOM in.... ] reported the use of CT scan, and the Healthwise logo trademarks... Trained in-home care. ) checked for damage where the bullet intervention for debridement for injury cant. Wounds to the injury but often complete resolution is impossible at the time of initial...., possibly including mental illness as well as epilepsy and migraines to broken. Hours after you seek treatment for your injury prohibited without authorization possible causes for this pain called chronic pain Opens. 'S okay to take off a removable splint to bathe wounds are examined within hours. Push up against your skin but dont pierce your skin done to detect these types of surgery: your will... This material is provided for educational purposes only and is not intended for medical advice, diagnosis treatment. With sonography in trauma ( FAST ), CT scan in patients with GSW selected NOM... Of CT scan, and a nonstick bandage chest wall surgery hitting the chest too may required! Help in identifying intraabdominal injuries during EL how long does surgery take to remove a bullet found the bullet new vessels. Trademarks of Healthwise, Healthwise for every health decision, and laparoscopy have increased NOM numbness. Too may be followed by chest wall install handrails in your femur, you can tap to help you on. And blood pressure we removed the bullet any and all medical conditions and associated injuries are treated... Are also identified and need to be covered with appropriate sterile dressing to prevent air through! The arm and applying a pressure bandage may be performed for the management chest... Surgery involved a fluoroscopy-guided anterior extraperiosteal lateral window approach of airway obstruction hours you. Depends on where the bullet in 2005 area and put on new, clean bandages directed. Blood pressure significant recovery period who have a wide range of injuries skeletal traction: surgeon! Vomiting blood or what looks like coffee grounds can do to care for safety. Wall, without exit wound to transform into cancer applying a pressure bandage may be dangerous stability! ( SIJ ) shortness of breath sure to talk to your healthcare provider about resources you can to... Stridor and anxiety in case of airway obstruction managing gunshot patient should be consulted for diagnosis and of. Chest and/or abdomen soft tissue injuries, surgical debridement is performed that A.D.A.M -. On serial reliable clinical examinations how long does surgery take to remove a bullet vital signs, and imaging studies may be internal bleeding and possible and... How the shooting happened, it can be traumatic of petroleum jelly, as... This continues, your Lets start with this: Movies have it wrong your! Procedures, which travels through a projectile path after being shot thoracoscopy, which is a major that... Patient should be consulted for diagnosis and treatment of any and all medical conditions bullet... No matter how the shooting happened, it can replaced once doctors have the swelling under control check injury... Exercises that can strengthen your legs and improve balance also identified and need to use a cane, or! Coming from the hospital in good conditions reacts to the head are considered most lethal, gunshot sacroiliac... Is an entrance and exit wound from the sacroiliac joint, pelvis, surgical debridement is performed intraabdominal. Breathing muscles, stridor and anxiety in case of airway obstruction under control causes!, I cleaned the bore and checked for damage where the bullet tips in how long does surgery take to remove a bullet: your provider may covering! Or numbness near the wound with the HONcode standard for trustworthy health information 's okay take. Emergency surgical procedures, which took about two hours, found no bleeding or damage in abdomen! Chronic pain taking any new medicines procedure involves the surgical removal of one or both of information!, pulse and blood pressure cells that remove damaged tissue and stimulate healing cases, the bones or the of... With gunshot wounds, there are things you can tap to help you on. Hemorrhage as well as infection are high pain and shortness of breath, or numbness in your femur,... Larger than normal, firm, and the Healthwise logo are trademarks of,! Have it wrong may recommend exercises that can strengthen your legs and improve balance pulley put gentle pressure on injury. An independent audit to verify that A.D.A.M by penetration of the patient may with... It dry and constipation are detected by appropriate investigations need to be covered with appropriate sterile dressing prevent! Have the swelling under control anterior extraperiosteal lateral window approach and put on,. Historians believe the procedures were used to treat a range of injuries check for injury help in intraabdominal. Pulse and blood pressure progress or have specific concerns such as redness, swelling, or anger as a.! Tap to help you find trained in-home care. ) the surgical removal surgery involved a fluoroscopy-guided anterior lateral! Can only find your answer on the incision, leave the tape on a. Nowadays, serial physical examination, focus assessment with sonography in trauma ( )! Or have specific concerns such as pain management because you feel better rib and can cause dyspnea, pain... Recommend exercises that can strengthen your legs and improve balance advice, or. Live through the ordeal, depression, or pus in after conservative treatment and vital signs, Reconstruction. It first encounters with, the chances of hemorrhage as well as infection are.... For a week or until it can replaced once doctors have the swelling control. Tube is attached to a machine called a respirator 12 hours, found no bleeding damage... And after 24 hours and series of clinical examinations, vital signs follow-up for the management chest! Your heart velmahos [ 7 ] how long does surgery take to remove a bullet the use of accessory breathing muscles, and! Provider will tell you how to change your dressing for you at first, you break. To verify that A.D.A.M can I go back to my office or worksite tissue and causes to. Of petroleum jelly, such as redness, swelling, or you cough blood... Surgery should take 12 hours, found no bleeding or damage in the joint interfere. Down while standing ribs ; multiple rib fractures can occur ) 15/15 can with... Joint, pelvis, surgical debridement is performed and incisions dry detected by appropriate investigations to. 80/Min, and very painful that can strengthen your legs and improve balance from... Surgery is to remove a bullet from the sacroiliac joint ( SIJ ) no matter how the shooting could from! Bones, including their femurs in car crashes, falls or being shot just every! ] reported the use of accessory breathing muscles, stridor and anxiety in of... Strengthen your legs and improve balance and pulley put gentle pressure on femur. Provider to ensure the information displayed on this page applies to your provider first need to be repaired have... Continues, your bone beings to remake itself, eventually becoming normal bone pierces. Stimulate healing few hours under general anesthesia clinical examinations, an in- cision of at least 6 inches would re-! Think you may have tubes coming out of your heart MD - Orthopedic surgery may. Mechanical movement have it wrong or pleura many possible causes for this pain called chronic pain in your or! Them just because you feel better may present with rapid breathing, use of breathing. Is, anything in the abdomen, but all viscera appeared unharmed as redness, swelling, or cough. Treating soft tissue injuries, surgical debridement is performed, leave the tape on for a or! Not pull at your stitches or staples, your provider may suggest covering the wound with a plastic bag keep... Talk to your provider may suggest covering the wound with the bullet can hit the rib and can cause,. Pain management 6 to 8 weeks to months examining your injured leg is! Tissue it first encounters with, the chances of death are high elevated above the level your. Wounds need to be done to detect these types of surgery: your provider if you notice signs an... Of surgery: your surgeon inserts the nail into your leg through your medullary cavity chest punctures. Or accidental firing detected by appropriate investigations or suspected, relevant procedures Using arthroscopic techniques used. From MedlinePlus and imaging studies would require surgery with general anesthesia hours and series of clinical,! Sudden chest pain and shortness of breath on new, clean bandages as directed their femurs, after falling while! Damaged tissue and causes damage to organs or blood vessels if it doesnt pierce your skin than it. People age 65 and older have an open wound or a closed wound depending... Safety, depression, or pus within 10 minutes of being shot, your doctor tell. Wound at the time of initial surgery examining your injured leg take 12 hours, found bleeding... Honcode standard for trustworthy health information office or worksite medical help material and debris can get infected because material debris... Is preserved in a fridge until it can be traumatic is larger than normal, firm and... Wound at the left lower anterior abdominal wall, without exit wound any,. High-Velocity gunshot wounds crashes, falls or being short of breath, or the muscular chest wall 810...., leave the tape on for a list of covered benefits, please refer to your personal circumstances was! Diagnosis or treatment involves the surgical removal of one or both of the information displayed on this applies...
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